Nick Bertozzi writes and draws "Rubber Necker," which is distributed by Alternative Comics. He also wrote "The Masochists," "Boswash" and has contributed to several anthologies.
One thing I really dig about Bertozzi's work is his sense of place, so although he doesn't have a direct link to Appalachia I thought he'd be good to interview. Plus, if you can't use a zine to meet people you admire, why do it at all, right?
We spoke over the phone back in March or so.
I noticed Jackson Heights on your mailing address. I thought you lived, or at least grew up in Rhode Island.
I grew up outside of Providence from age one to going off to college. And now I've been in New York for almost 10 years. It'll be 10 years in August.
What year did you leave Providence?
When I was 18, and I went to college at UMass. I went to Philly for a couple of years and then got a job at DC Comics.
I don't even know how old you are. Do you mind me asking, just to establish when this all was?
I'm 33, I'll be 34 later this year. How old are you?
27. Do you still work for DC Comics?
I was working as a comic retailer in Philadelphia. I was working at fat jack's comic crypt. If you've bought comics in Philadelphia, you know about Fat Jack's comics. I was manager there in one of their stores out near Bryn Mawr College on the outskirts of Philadelphia. I was working as a retailer, managing the store and ordering comics and all that, and doing my minicomics at night. A guy I knew who was a good customer got offered a job at DC Comics in the marketing department. He couldn't take it because he just had a kid, so he called me, said 'I think you should apply for this job' and next thing I know I'm in midtown Manhattan working at DC Comics in the marketing department. I worked there for three years and realized I was a terrible — the job went from being a guy that would take retailers out to dinner to being a guy that would try to sell comics, try to get them to order more Batman and that sort of thing. I was just godawful at it. I was good at taking people out to dinner.
Yeah the 4th issue of the zine, we just sold our first ads. I realized it's something I'm not very good at. I've gotten a little better, but the first guy agreed right off the bat to do it, and even after that I kept undercutting my price.
It's amazing. Did you ever see the movie "Glengarry Glen Ross?" "ABC, gentlemen. Always be closing." And that's something I could never do. I could get them to the point where they're interested, but to get them to close on the sales — forget it! I was horrible out of it. I would even talk people out of sales. I would say, "You know what? I noticed your order for Batman - yada yada - it's really high. You might not want to order that many copies. Cuz it's a terrible comic. So just order for your subscribers only." And, you know, I guess that works maybe in the long run, but I wasn't so good at it. Anyway, I was there til 97, and then I quit to do ... well, I thought I was going to do comics full-time. I was publishing a mini-comic, called "The Incredible Drinkin’ Buddies." And then when I quit, I published a full-sized comic version of "The Incredible Drinkin’ Buddies," and I thought, OK, now I'm going to go into selling my own comics, and I'll make enough to live off of. Sure enough, by the end of that year I was $10,000 in debt. A huge printing debt, and many sad nights spent at the bar, wondering why no one was buying my terrible comic.
What was "The Incredible Drinking Buddies" about?
A friend of mine, Bill Weaver, was the writer on it and I was the artist. He's since moved to Atlanta. I wasn't comfortable writing at that point and didn't feel like I'd found any kind of voice to speak with. He was a writer and he was very funny, but our humor was very scatological and a little surreal. "The Incredible Drinkin’ Buddies" was a superhero parody and they just hung around in a bar and kibitzed ... kibbutzed? I don't know the right word.
Sounds like one of them New Yorker words.
They chewed the fat. There. How about that? About having little, over-the-top superhero adventures. Bill and I both grew up liking comics. He was a friend of mine from Philadelphia, who moved up to New York too. It got to the point where we did four issues and it just sold worse and worse each time. Bill's just a great guy and one of those people that's just full of ideas. When he hits the right medium, everybody will know about him. I just don't think he's found the right medium for people to understand his genius. We published 4 issues of "The Incredible Drinkin’ Buddies," and then Bill and I parted ways. I published another version under the name "Tranquilizer," in 1998. That sold pretty poorly as well. At that point my roommate Dean Haspiel, who was also a cartoonist, he said to me, instead of trying to please people, why don't you just do what you want to do? And with "Incredible Drinkin’ Buddies," I'd thought, all I need is a good concept and a good name, and it doesn't matter what the hell it is, doesn't matter, I can sell the damn thing and make a living off it. Trying to make money from comics is really difficult. I think anybody that succeeds does it for love. Working at DC Comics I had been so geared toward the numbers that it took me a while to realize, oh yeah, I do comics because I love them, not because of a huge pile of money. An interesting aside: Have you heard of this comic called "Superhero Happy Hour"? A buddy sent it to me. It just got a cease-and-desist letter from Marvel and DC for the word "superhero." I don't even know the full story, apparently they had to change it. But Wizard called it the best idea you've ever heard of that we didn't come up with.
That sounds similar to what you were working with.
I know! That's why he sent it to me. My friend Bill and I had that idea 10 years ago, and it was just a major flop. We were 10 years ahead of our time.
Were you working a day job during all this?
Not for a year, because I'd saved up all this money and got it partially invested. The stock market was just going nuts at that point, so all this money I put in suddenly grew exponentially, so I had a huge chunk of change when I got out of DC. I was saving like a fiend knowing that I had some printing bills ahead of me, so I wanted a large cash flow. After that first year, I had to go get a job and ended up working as an art director at Crescent Publishing. They publish "Barely Legal" and "Celebrity Skin." For a teenager, it sounds like a dream job, right? But after the first initial shock of boobies everywhere, after 2 weeks of that, you're like, this is just a depressing, depressing job. It was a creepy place to work. You know how people are about comic books — they get a little obsessed with them. There's people that worked at Crescent that were really obsessed with porn and could tell you the intricate details of ... There's people I know in the comics industry where you could hold up any issue of "The Brave and the Bold" with your finger over the issue number, and they can tell you what number it is. The porno guys were the same way with stats about particular porn stars. After Crescent I had a bunch of art directing jobs. The internet boom was just great because I was making more money, more money every job I went to. And then it finally collapsed. Left high and dry, like so many other idiots that thought we were hot shit with Photoshop. ... I've gotta ask you my favorite question, I ask everyone this. For years I've been asking this. What was your first concert, when and where?
You know, I always ask this question too. Tell me yours first.
OK, it was Sha-Na-Na. They were a 50s style doo-wap kinda show. That was 1980, the Providence Civic Center.
Ah. Mine was I went with my brother to the West Virginia State Fair and saw Tiffany open up for New Kids on the Block.
Oh man. That's a good one! That's one of the most embarrassing ones I've ever heard.
I'm sure there were others. My parents were into bluegrass and country growing up, but that's the first one I remember.
The best one I ever heard, and I've asked thousands of people at this point, but the best one was Calvin Reed, who just started Graphica. His first concert was when he was 11, in 1965 or '66, in Philadelphia, the Cub Scout den mother took him and all his friends to go see James Brown and the Famous Flames. And I can't imagine ... how could you ever want to see another concert after that?
The best one was I interviewed a local rockabilly band, and he might have been putting me on, but the singer told me his mother went into labor at an Elvis show, and his father made her stay until the show was over.
I've seen clips of him, and even when he was coke-addled or whatever, you watch those videos of him in Las Vegas, and the guy was frenetic, he was just crazy on stage.
These days it seems like you do a lot of hired illustration.
Probably half of my money is from illustration, and now a good chunk of it is from teaching at SVA, the School of Visual Arts here in New York City. Actually, the best paying gig I got was from Nickelodeon Magazine. I did a five-parter for them that was through the editor there, Chris Duffy, the best editor in comics, and that was a nice bonanza, a windfall of cash. Respectively speaking, cartoonists don't make a lot of money, so it was nice to get paid very well for a lot of hard work. It's this strip called Karmopolis. I do have plans for reprinting at some point in the future, and hopefully they'll want to do more. We'll see. I think you have to let it run a year or so before they say it's OK to reprint it. So hopefully I'll run that in Rubber Necker at some point. It's in color too, so I'll have to wait until Rubber Necker is doing well enough for me to print in color.
Growing up it seemed like you were into comics. Did you have a favorite?
When I was a kid I read superhero comics. My dad used to read me classic comics, Mr. Natural and the Fabulous Freak Brothers. He got me into Crumb early. He would leave out the swears. He'd read me the basic story. If you look at them they're pretty tame, in the sense that ... well, the drug stories are kind of tame, if you don't understand drugs, if you're a little kid. But I'm certain he didn't read me any of the more lascivious stories. It was that and Tin-Tin too. I remember for superhero comics I loved the X-Men and Spiderman and all the usual cast. Much more of a Marvel than a DC guy. I read them pretty hardcore from 8 to 13 and then we moved outside of Providence, and it was pretty hard to get to a comics shop so I stopped reading them. During that period I was doing my own comics too, as a kid. I probably have a good big box, 80 comics worth of my own little comics company I created. It was all my own characters, but so obviously based on, like Daredevil — oh, Frank Miller's Daredevil, that was the other one I liked as a kid — but so obviously based on Daredevil and the X-Men. Real thinly veiled version of it. It was fan fiction in that sense. Someone at a convention told me about the fanfic sites, and I finally got to read some of them. I was enraptured for hours. That stuff is hilarious.
Tell me how you started developing the style you have now. The first one I read by you was Rubber Necker, which I picked up at Newbury Comics. I was pretty taken by the style.
It's a little involved. After "The Incredible Drinkin’ Buddies" ran its course and into the ground, I did another comic called "Filthy Baby," a minicomic. I sent it to all the big indy publishers, Fantagraphics, Top Shelf. They all turned it down. I don't know if you've read "Schizo," by Ivan Brunetti. Really visceral, painful but really funny. I was trying to do my version of Schizo. Nobody was interested. Rightfully so, I guess. It was too dark. I was still roommates with Dean Haspiel at that point. He said, "Nick, you keep trying to cater to an audience. Why not just do what you want to do in comics?" I said what the hell, what do I have to lose? There was a contest called Comix 2000 (this has got to be in 1999). L'Associastion, in France, which is a pretty well respected publisher of French artists, was putting together a big book of comics called Comix 2000, which was to be 2000 pages of wordless comics about the 20th century from cartoonists all over the world. You'd send in your entry, and they'd choose you or turn you down. I did a 13-page story about this strange dream that loosely touched on my thoughts about the 20th century. That sounds way too pretentious. They ended up accepting it. That was a real big turning point for me, because it was the first time I'd done a comic that was accepted by someone I didn't know, and it was the first comic that just came out of what I really wanted to do. After that I did a map comic that you unfold, and each fold is a different panel. That was called Boswash, and I got a Xeric Grant for that. It was all about nationalism, and I was just really curious about trying to find my value system in regards to nationalism. I did some research to ask this question in artistic form: What is nationalism and why are we so obsessed with borders? That turned into "Boswash," and that too was rewarded in the sense I got a Xeric Grant to publish it. And I got an Ignatz award that year for promising new talent. That led to talking to Jeff Mason. I saw him at a convention. He asked what are you publishing next? I said I didn't know and he said, whatever it is, you're publishing with me. I said Fine! That was "The Masochists" trade paperback. At that point I'd developed my question, which has been the theme behind everything I've done since then, and that's: What makes people create? It's this big open question that I'll never be able to answer, just chipping away at it. So that formed the basis of "The Masochists" which was rewarded too — I got an Eisner nomination for that book. From there I decided I wanted to do a much longer piece, Drop Ceiling. But to do that I'd have to drop out of the comics scene for a few years, and I wanted to keep my hand in it. I had this backlog of stories I've done for anthologies. I realized I could do Drop Ceiling, and put the stories together in one place, in "Rubber Necker," and present it as a nice, kind-of yearbook at this point. I've only done one this past year and one this current year. The style for "Rubber Necker," and for Drop Ceiling in particular, just developed. My artwork has always been about trying to be as clear as possible, and in Drop Ceiling I wanted to really capture the architecture of a city and kind of use that, make sure it's as much a character as the people inhabiting that city. I know that sounds kind of fru fru too, but I think that a setting really can inform the mood of a story. I just love drawing buildings. Growing up in Providence and Pawtucket, you're just surrounded by these great great old buildings right next to ... standing foot to foot with these bizarre 1970s catastrophes. When urban renewal hit New England in the '60s, they just went nuts. They razed all these beautiful buildings and then threw up these incredibly hideous box shapes. In that sense it's kind of beautiful. You can walk down the main strip in Pawtucket and it's like walking through 300 years of American architecture in one street, a 100-foot span. They've got everything there, it's incredible. It's probably garish to some, the people that like their town to be ... everything's got to be in the Georgian period, the neo-whatever period. But to have them all together in this weird mish-mash, it's quite beautiful actually.
You mentioned the French anthology. Was that in "Rubber Necker?"
It was in the first one. It's called Masochism but it has nothing to do with "The Masochists." I just liked that word.
Is that the one where the guy is talking about Sisyphus, then he goes and gets picked up by the Greek statue at the end?
It's supposed to be Athena.
That was one of the stories that really struck me. And then Drop Ceiling, the more I look at it the more it strikes me. Especially the buildings, and the streets too. I felt like I recognized some of the spots from when I went to school in Rhode Island. The people are so unique too. You can almost pinpoint which block they live on by their accent. Something else I wanted to ask. What do you think about ... let's look at two extremes. Sprawl and big box stores and all that, and some of the quirky New England villages tailoring themselves to tourists. We've got that here in Appalachia, where some towns are starting to market themselves, and everything in these towns has this quaint feel to it. Two extremes on a spectrum. Any thoughts? Is there beauty to be found there too?
I think my base idea would be how does it affect ... everybody talks about sprawl in terms of aesthetics, and that's important. But more importantly, how does this affect my drinking water? In sprawl, that's the suburbs. I would say then that the bigger the parking lot, the less water table you have and the less clean your water's going to be. I don't know enough about it to comment.
One thing that comes to mind is "Jimmy Corrigan," where there's one page with maybe nine panels, and each one has a shot that looks really sprawled out, but on the back there's a description of a small mom-and-pop restaurant that's kind of hidden in the shot. Your eye is drawn to the McDonald's, but he's talking about the Wagon Wheel. Is there a perverse beauty to that?
I can only speak to my experience riding around in a car in New Jersey and Virginia. Riding around, especially New Jersey, to take a left turn you have to go into a cloverleaf and turn right. The towns now are basically highways. The only way to get places is to drive. For me, someone who loves getting places on a bike, I have kind of a negative connotation of sprawl. But I have to agree, there is a perverse beauty in all these different styles of signs and architecture. The one thing I really dislike, and maybe it's just a snobby thing, but I like buildings with windows. Having worked in offices with no windows, I know how depressed that makes me feel. Not clinically depressed or anything, but it does me good to be able to look out a window, even if I'm not consciously staring. Letting light in is important. When you have a big box megastore with no windows, no matter what friendly colors they use for banners or signs or to paint the walls, it's still just gonna be this unfriendly place that's all about just getting the experience over with as quickly as possible. It's get-in, get-out, and while you're in the store you don't get distracted by what's going on outside. You're highly focused in this crazy shopping atmosphere. It's aesthetically displeasing, but shopping is not an artform. Or maybe it is. Maybe that's what the next Andy Warhol will figure out. Or maybe somebody already did figure it out but I'm too dense to have heard about it.
You mentioned riding. Do you ride your bike a lot? Do you think riding a bike and walking more changes how you perceive a town?
Definitely, on a bike you see a town differently and experience it differently. Even more so on a walk. I've always loved walking. We've got a joke in my family, going back to my dad. Whenever you'd go on a trip with him, you go on a Bertozzi forced march. The walk could be hours long. I know that sounds like torture for some kids, but now it's instilled in me. On occasion, rather than take the subway home, I'll take a long 2 or 3 hour walk. It's a good way of catching your breath and experiencing things you'd never see traveling in a car or traveling underground. Especially for the architecture. I just moved to Queens, that's where Jackson Heights is. I just recently walked from Brooklyn back home, up into Queens. It took me 3 hours to get home. You walk through Williamsburg, probably built in the early 1900s. Then you walk through Newton Creek into Queens, and you get to Long Island city. You walk around PS1, which is this beautiful piece of architecture that's now a contemporary art museum. It's the center of the old Queens. Then you walk past the Citibank building, which is the one tower in Queens. It just sticks out like this giant phallus. Then you walk east out to where I live, and just walk through residential neighborhoods and past cemeteries. Every once in a while you'll see this beautiful old building. Someone will have bothered to put a turret on the edge of a building. You say, why the hell did they do that? And every other building on that block is as flat as can be. I really think walking is an essential part of life. This may be the other thing that makes me dislike sprawl, because it's tough and uncomfortable to walk along the side of the road where there's nonstop traffic and everyone's driving by at 50 mph. John Adams used long walks as his form of meditation. It's all about rhythm and breathing.
When things start to get to me, I hit the trails here. Not only do you have the walking and breathing, but you have all this chaotic pattern of leaves that cohere to a pattern, but it's very nonlinear and different from the city. To go back to Pawtucket, how does architecture affect people? Do you think the differences in people from Pawtucket to New York are based in part on their surroundings?
That's a good question. I wonder if that's true. I know that certainly architecture changes the way you experience the world. I spent a semester in Spain and lived in a Spanish house. Even the smallest things — the light fixtures and the way their windows opened and the toilet in the bathroom — you had to acclimate to this new way. Tiny little differences. Definitely if the interior architecture affects you on a very surface level, then the exterior architecture does as well. Going back to shopping and being enclosed, that definitely alters the way you think, whether you know it or not. Any kind of casino, there's no windows and they tailor the room so you get lost, you don't know how to get out.
My friend and I went to the New York New York casino in Las Vegas a few years ago, and you walk down these stairs into the pit where all the games are. You turn the corner from that, and the exit is gone. You can't find where you came in.
There's gotta be something to architecture.
Maybe the people in Woonsocket are all eccentric because of their crazy architecture and roads.
Their language too makes them different. If you consider, there's a huge influx of Quebecois, 100 years or more ago. There was the joke in Providence: You know someone was from Woonsocket if they said, 'I fell me down the stairs, eh?'
Like I said earlier, I got to where I could tell if someone was from Cumberland, Woonsocket or Pawtucket after conversing with them for 5 minutes.
I don't think I could ever do that. I can barely distinguish Boston from Providence.
Down here, no one thinks I have a Southern accent. But up there people would comment on it.
You definitely do. It's funny because a friend of mine who works and lives in Vienna, I think he grew up in Bethesda, you guys sound a lot different.
Well, yeah. There's a certain accent my mom has. There's a gradient from here down to Boone or so. It gets stronger and stronger as you go south, then peaks out in Boone maybe. It's not a classic Southern accent, more of a mountain accent.
It's the same up north. You go from Rhode Island to Maine and get a pretty distinct bunch of accents going.
The last thing I wanted to ask about is the influence of music in your work. Between Drop Ceiling in the first issue, where the protagonist puts on the headphones and gets transported to a different world, and the Masochists, where there's the story about the guy who used to have a band with his buddy. It seems like you're pretty into music.
I kind of gave up comics when I was 13 and ended up picking up the guitar and playing in a bunch of rock bands for 10 years. My favorite bands as a teenager were the Cure, REM, U2, Echo and the Bunnymen. A bit of a British Invasion kind of bent to my rock music. All the bands I played in were roughly in that vein, except at the height of the industrial rock period I played in an industrial band called Peachfist. That's what got me into doing comics again, or part of it. The singer of that band wanted me to do a comic about a superhero named Peachfist. It ended up turning into "The Incredible Drinkin’ Buddies." So I was in a bunch of bands, played piano since I was 10, always listened to music. And always wanted to be in a rock band and tour. Never did, sadly. I still play music to this day, but comics have definitely taken over my life. One thing that really appealed to me about a cartoonist like Jaime Hernandez, is that you can obviously see that he had played in bands himself. He actually drew people playing guitars like you really play guitars, with the finger positions. He drew the headstocks correctly, and just took the time to really draw what an interaction between a band and crowd would be in a club, whereas the other version of that you always see in comics, especially superhero comics, is a punk rock club where everyone's got mohawks, and everyone's got steel-studded jackets and things like that. You see that in movies too. It's a shorthand version of a rock club that's so unreal and stereotypical. What Jaime Hernandez got to was depicting the reality of a rock show. I don't think he ever posed his characters in this heroic over-the-top poses. They always seemed just very real. That really grabbed me. I think of him as an inspiration for thinking about that in those stories, especially in The Masochists story. It has the two different guys, Mr Commercial Guy and the Old Punk Rocker. The other thought with that story was I wanted to take up the challenge of depicting music on the page and giving it an icon that hadn't been used before. I looked through Meghan Kelso's book, "Queen of the Black Black," and she had a device where she drew music in this snaky smoky form. You know it's music, and people are dancing to it in the panels. I wanted to play off that and I ended up doing the shapes, the round shapes for pleasing sounds and square shapes for more angular sounds. At the end of that story, the commercial hack and the old punk rocker, their music ends up meshing together. One's got the round sound, and the other's got the square sound, and it ends up meshing into a squarey-round sound. The other thing about music is I listen to WFMU all day now. It's the best radio station. It's everything. It's freeform. They'll play Moondog next to Faust, then this Cambodian 60s rock next to whatever the craziest, latest MP3 mashup. The best one they were playing lately is Whitney Houston's "I Wanna Dance with Somebody" over "New Year's Day" by U2. Or the Howard Dean shrieking speech over the intro to "Welcome to the Jungle." There's just so much good stuff going on with music right now. Just like with comics. When I was 15, you could read Rolling Stone or Spin, or whatever zine there was at the local record shop, but now there's just access to so much more. That's the thing about a radio station like WFMU, you just can't get bored listening to all the music of all the world. There's plenty of shows where they're mission is to get you to turn the radio off.
Check out Bertozzi's stuff at his website or his page on the Alternative Comics website.
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